Arizona Senator Mark Kelly on Venezuela, Ukraine, government shutdown and more

WASHINGTON (CBS, KYMA) - Sen. Mark Kelly (D-Ariz.) spoke with Margaret Brennan on Face the Nation Sunday on Venezuela.

According to Brennan, there was about 10,000 U.S. forces built up in the Caribbean area, either on ships or in Puerto Rico, with three B-52 bombers flying near Venezuela last week. There was also six maritime strikes by U.S. Special Operations Forces, according to Brennan.

This prompted her to ask Sen. Kelly what those are adding up to, and if the Trump Administration is planning a regime change in Venezuela, to which the senator said:

"I hope not. Regime change hasn't ever really worked out well for us as a nation where we've supported that, whether it was in Vietnam, Cuba, Iraq, Afghanistan. It doesn't go the way we think, and it puts a tremendous number of Americans in harm's way. The U.S. military, the guys flying those missions now in B-52s close to the coast, those folks are at risk, members of the United States Navy now in this operation, which is clearly traditionally a law enforcement operation, now escalating to something maybe, as the president talks about regime change. I think this is the wrong move for this president. The Coast Guard has the resources to do this."

Brennan followed up by asking Kelly, after he was briefed on what legal authorities are being invoked, if he thinks they are insufficient at this point, and Kelly said:

"They had a very hard time explaining to us the rationale, the legal rationale for doing this and the constitutionality of doing it. When you consider what the law of warfare, especially at sea, was, a very convoluted argument. It also included, by the way, a secret list of over 20 narco organizations, drug trafficking cartels. They wouldn't share with us the list. So the brief we got had a tremendous number of holes in it, and they had to go round and around to give us the legal rationale for doing this. And what I worry about [is] are all these young military personnel that might find out, you know, months from now, that what they did was illegal. And then you get to what are we trying to accomplish here? We want to keep fentanyl out of the United States. And I don't know how widely known this is, but those routes through the Caribbean on boats are predominantly used to bring cocaine to Europe...Fentanyl tends to come from a different way, and we do want to keep fentanyl out of the United States."

During the interview, Brennan and Kelly talked about Admiral Alvin Holsey reportedly being pressured to leave his command one year into a four-year post, as well as tensions between him and Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth leading to his departure, with Secretary Hegseth calling it a retirement.

This lead Brennan to ask the senator if top officers, such as Admiral Holsey, can refuse, with confidence, unlawful orders without fear of retribution or even losing their pensions, and Kelly said:

"I don't know about losing their pension, but they should. This is more important than any single person. This is about our democracy at this point, and those admirals and generals, they need to speak truth to power. I've had conversations with the most senior members of our military about this specific thing. They cannot be breaking the law. Doesn't matter if the president or the Secretary of Defense tells them to do something. If it's against the law, they have to say no. They're not required to follow an unlawful order. So we expect that from them. I don't know the exact circumstances why the admiral quit. He hasn't said publicly yet. I expect in time we're going to find out more."

When asked if Holsey quit, Kelly said, " don't know. They could have forced him out. He could have quit. He could have said, 'Hey, you're not accepting my advice, you need somebody else in here.' I don't know. I hate to speculate about it."

Later in the interview, Brennan and Kelly talked about President Donald Trump and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy agreeing to disagree on whether to get long-range missiles allowing them to fire into Russia during a meeting on Friday.

When Brennan asked where things stand, Kelly said:

"I spoke to Zelenskyy three weeks ago in New York, right after his meeting with Donald Trump, and we talked about Tomahawks in that meeting. Much longer range, over 1,000 miles, 700-pound warhead. Really good...Game changing. The president said he would consider giving them this weapon system. And then he had a conversation with Vladimir Putin. And I think it's important for people to recognize, Vladimir Putin is a former KGB officer. He is a master manipulator. The president has one view. Then he talks to Vladimir Putin, and he changes his story on this. Of course, Putin does not want Ukraine to get a longer-range missile that could go after targets deep into Russia, beyond Moscow and St. Petersburg, by the way. It can range targets much further. It's very accurate, very survivable weapon, and Putin has a conversation with him, and those weapons are now off the table. Hey, I think Ukraine can handle it if we can give them enough rounds, and we have them in our inventory, and enough launchers. Ground launchers are rather new to this system, something we got rid of for a long period of time. They've demonstrated their ability to operate a sophisticated weapon system like the F-16. They could handle this and it would help."

Following this, Brennan and Kelly talked about the ongoing government shutdown, with Brennan saying Senate Majority Leader John Thune posting to social media saying he's offering to sit down with Democrats over Obamacare on the condition they end the shutdown.

This prompted Brennan to ask if Kelly thinks this is a win and is it enough, to which the senator said:

"I didn't look at his tweet, but what we need is to fix this skyrocketing premium. They're going to go up on November 1 for people, they can't afford it. People in my state...I've talked to so many people. This woman, Emily, whose husband is a pastor who has three kids, says without the Affordable Care Act, she cannot have insurance for her children. They don't get it through his work. So what we need to do is fix this health care premium issue and open the government."

Brennan followed up by asking Kelly if they are going to end the shutdown before November 1, and he said:

"I would like to. I'd like to. We should be able to wrap this up this week if they will sit down and have a negotiation with us. The president has spent one hour negotiating this issue with leadership in Congress. That's it, one hour. They need to get in a room and stay in a room until we can hash this out. The president has said he wants to fix this premium thing and he wants the government open. That's what we want."

To watch more of Brennan's interview with Kelly, click here.